Settled: How to Find Calm in a Stress-Inducing World w/ Chantal Donnelly
In this episode of The Make Room Show, host Jennifer interviews Chantal Donnelly, a physical therapist and author of "Settled: How to Find Calm in a Stress-Inducing World." Chantal shares her journey from being a physical therapist to becoming an author and how her background in anatomy and physiology became a crucial tool in understanding stress.
Chantal provides practical tools to help calm the nervous system and improve body awareness. Decluttering is also discussed as a way to decrease stress by improving one's internal awareness and increasing the ability to tolerate uncomfortable feelings.
Talking points:
- "Introception" / "soul speak" and how it relates to understanding and managing stress.
- How stress manifests in the body before affecting the mind.
- The "butterfly hug".
- The relationship between external clutter and internal clutter in terms of stress.
- Hormonal changes, such as perimenopause and menopause, & increasing sensitivity to stress in women.
- Tips for increasing the ability to tolerate uncomfortable feelings.
- The importance of individual preferences and needs when considering stress management techniques.
-- Chantal is a physical therapist, author of Settled: How to Find Calm in a Stress-Inducing World, and owner of Body Insight in Pasadena, CA. Her book helps people understand how important addressing the body is when looking for relief from stress. ā websiteā ā instagramā
About your host, Jennifer Ford Berry: Jennifer is the host of the Make Room podcast and the founder of theā Created Order Neighborhoodā , an online community of women who want to live a life of order and purpose. She is the author of five books, including the Organize Now! series and her latest, Make Room. Jennifer was previously the regular organizing expert on the TV show Winging It, Buffalo Style. , and has appeared as a guest expert on several television and radio shows, as well as in national magazines and newspapers. Jennifer lives in western New York with her husband and two children. She works both hands-on and virtually with her clients to help them eliminate clutter and live their dreams.
Where to find Jennifer:
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Transcript:
Jennifer:
Hello, everybody, welcome back to The Make Room Show, I'm super excited to have a guest on today that's going to help you not only feel better, but reduce your stress. And we all know as women, we, our ears will perk up if somebody is going to tell us how to reduce stress. So welcome to the show, Chantal Donnelly.
Chantal:
Thank you, I'm excited to be here.
Jennifer:
So happy to have you. So you are a physical therapist, and you are also the new author of “Settled: How to Find Calm in a Stress Inducing World”. So congratulations on your book.
Chantal:
Thank you.
Jennifer:
Yes, I'm excited to see how these two worlds collide. So I'm sure that you probably were a physical therapist not planning on writing a book, I probably could get that right. And then you saw a need, right? So what was that need that you determined?
Chantal:
It was a need within myself, but it was also a need within my patients. So what I was seeing as patients were just, you know, getting better on my table and feeling better, and then going out into their stressful lives, whether it was their jobs, or their relationships, or, you know, whatever it was, there's so many different kinds of stressors out there. And you know, it was up regulating their their connective tissue, which is what I had just sort of unwound. So everything would just wandering back up again. And I got frustrated. And at the same time, I was going through a lot of stress myself. And it was like, what, what is missing here, there's something missing.
And I really thought that I was going to be going into a totally different career because I was so determined to figure out the solution to the stress piece. And when I started doing the research, what I found is that my anatomy and physiology knowledge as well as my physical therapy background, was actually the exact thing that I needed, because stress starts in the body, and then it becomes about our mind and our thoughts ping pong everywhere, but it starts with what's happening in your body. And so it was, it's been kind of cool to be able to incorporate my physical therapy with the stress science, and it just kind of took off from there. So much so that when I was talking to my friends about it, or my clients about it, they're like, “You should write a book”.
Jennifer:
Do you find that the stress when it shows in the body, that's like the last, that's like, our body's last chance at saying hello, wake up, there's a lot of things affecting you?
Chantal:
So it's, it's interesting, the body is actually - first what we feel is the insomnia or the neck pain, or, you know, whatever it is, that is, is your physical ailment, these diseases are related to stress. And that's when we think, Oh, well, now, my body is screaming at me. But there are whispers that happened long before that, actually, long before the negative self talk and all that stuff that happens. It's actually the body that talks first. And we're just not really trained in how to listen to that. And that's really what the book is about is just more self awareness, more body awareness, so that we can kind of stop that downward spiral of stress from happening. Before it gets to the point where we have insomnia, where we have the aches and pains or we have the diabetes or the cardiovascular or the brain fog, whatever it is, right.
Jennifer:
I love that because I definitely am one of those people that can I believe I can heal my own body. And I just kind of walk around thinking that and so I listened intently to it. So talk about those whispers what are some whispers that maybe you've seen a lot of that people ignore?
Chantal:
Yeah, so what we call that, what you're doing when you're feeling your internal body sensations, the scientists call it introception. And I call it soul speak. Like you're really listening to what your body is trying to tell you. And some of sometimes that's intuition. And sometimes that is your heart rate. Sometimes it's the way in which you're breathing. Are you breathing from your neck? Are you breathing from your belly? Is your breathing shallow? Is it deep? Sometimes it's tingles in the body, kind of after somebody said something right? And you get that sensation. And a lot of times we just kind of ignore that stuff. Sometimes it's a it's a feeling of being cold. You know, there are all these really subtle things that we kind of do. dismiss, really, because we've been taught that what makes us so special is our minds. And that's true.
But what really makes us so special is that our body and our minds are a two way communication street. Right. And it's that communication back and forth. That is really what makes us so special. What we're finding is that, although we prioritize brain down stuff, so mindset, and psychology and all that, and that stuff is all amazing and wonderful meditation is all brain down, it's basically trying to get your, your brain to talk to your body. What we're finding is that this two way street that happens between the brain and the body, it's actually 80% of the communication is going up from the body to the brain, and only 20% is coming down. And we know that because the main freeway is a cranial nerve called your vagus nerve. And when they you know, dissect the vagus nerve, they can see that there are these afferent and efferent type nerves that are going up and down and 80% of it is body talking to brain.
Jennifer:
So is that just the natural way that it works? Or is there a way to make it a little bit more the opposite? Like with all these things that we're learning like meditation? Are we are we helping it? Or is it just stuck this way?
Chantal:
So I think we are helping it. But I think the emphasis on this as the only way to do it might be hurting some people, because not everybody is able to get into the right mindset. So when you're really stressed, if you think about it, your brain kind of goes offline, right? So a lot of the meditation and the mindset stuff, it's kind of like trying to talk to a toddler who's having a tantrum. Right. Like, I know, I think your kids are a little bit older, right? But remember when they were toddlers, so like a three year old, who's thrown himself down on the ground, and is like totally tampering out. And you're like, trying to talk to them and reason with him, and it's okay, you can get candy later, it's going to be 30, they can't even hear you let alone process and try to reason with that, right? That's kind of what we're trying to do when we talk to our brains when we're super stressed. Our brain is not online at that point. So actually, we should be talking to our bodies, which will then allow the brain to come back online.
Jennifer:
Right, right. So we know that stress causes a lot of disease, right? I know that. Um, but I think it's interesting, too. I always think when I talk to people that are really educated in how the brain the body work, that it blows my mind how literally God made us so complicated, but so we work so well. So talk to us a little bit about, like, how, how to create a more positive mindset with self care, and then how does that translate to our body? So if you're feeling like, if there's a lady listening to this today, and I'm like, you know, I have, I've definitely been experiencing those whispers. But I want to take action. I'm not really sure how I want to be more intuitive. And I'm ready for a change. What does that look like Chantal?
Chantal:
Yeah, so you know, positive mindset and self care. Sometimes we need to kind of take a step back. A lot of times what's happening with our self care and our positive self talk is that it's actually just escapism, it's kind of just interrupting our stress. So we want to make sure that our self care is actually down regulating our nervous system. Okay, so what do I mean by that?
Jennifer:
Yeah, tell us more, we need to hear this. Yeah.
Chantal:
So what's happening is like, you can take, you know, you can go for a run, you can take a yoga class, let's say those are your self care, maybe it's a hot bubble bath, whatever your self care is. If you step out of that self care, and your level of stress goes right back up to baseline where it was, before you did that self care, you're probably not down regulating your nervous system. And you know, we keep doing it, I almost feel like we're becoming junkies for our self care, because they're not down regulating our nervous system. So we do more, and we do more, and we do more, and then we feel bad if we don't get to it. And then that brings on more stress.
So we have all these sort of negative feedback loops happening where our self care is actually making us more stressed because a it's not helping us really where it needs to help us and be now we feel guilty because we've been told that it should help us. So now there's some shame and some guilt and some sort of frantic attempt to drive to try to do more and there's only so many hours in the day to self care, right. So what I teach in my book, and I have, I don't know 2530 tools, and most of them are like 30 seconds long. And there are tools that can help you down regulate your nervous system.
I'm not saying to give up your hot bath or your exercise. I'm a physical therapist, I'm not going to tell you not to exercise. But what you might want to do is change the way you're doing those things. So that you know for sure that your your nervous system is down regulating. Right? And really, it's about giving your body a sense of support and safety. Right. Versus a sense of escaping from reality. And I'm gonna get, I'll get it. I'll give you some tangibles.
Jennifer:
Yeah, give us some examples, like, because I love when guests give us takeaways that we can start implementing today.
Chantal:
Yeah, for sure. So well, okay, so hot bath. Like, if you're a mom of three, and your husband's not home, and you've been told that a hot bath is what's going to help you and the whole time, you're worried that kids are going to burn down the house? Not your tool, right? So number one is don't assume that everything that everybody tells you if your best friend tells you that the hot bath works for her. You know, take that with a grain of salt. Yes, thank you, I'll try it. But if it's not your thing, it's not your thing. And the way to know if it's not your thing is to check in with yourself and say like, “Am I really feeling like I'm calming down and do I feel like I have more bandwidth, and more capacity to handle what's going on in my life?” Even just a little bit. I'm not saying like you feel like you can conquer the world. But even if you feel just a little bit more positive, a little bit lighter, a little bit like you can breathe around everything that you have on your plate than you know that your hot bath or whatever it is has helped you, right.
So one thing you can do is add certain, like I said, 32nd tools to see what helps you and and then you don't have to worry so much about getting to all of those self care rituals that you feel you need. So I'll do breathing just because everyone's heard of breathing. And it's super easy, but I think people don't really understand why breathing works and how it might work. So when you inhale, your heart rate speeds up a little bit. When you exhale, your heart rate slows down a little bit. So we can kind of use the physiology that we were born with that we were like blessed with really, and take advantage of it. And we can make our exhales longer than our inhales and basically, so like three inhales in six exhales out right, something like that, or it can be four in six out just anything where the exhale is longer than the inhale. What that does is it tells your body, we're calming the heart rate down a little bit, just a little bit, we're just going to calm it down a little bit, that sends a message up to the brain that oh, we're safe, we're supported, everything is good. We don't need to go into panic mode. Right. And then you get your homeostasis, which basically just the heart rate goes back to normal, right? So now instead of the hot bath, you've calmed your heart rate down, which has sent that message up to your brain of “No, we're okay”. Right? So if you were to just to inhale through your nose for a count of three, and then exhale, either through your nose or your mouth for a count of six. And just check in and see how that feels. Not gonna work for everybody. Like I said, You got to find your own tool, right? But that's that one is a biggie for a lot of people, it really helps a lot of people. Okay,
Jennifer:
Okay, what's another tool?
Chantal:
So there's something called the butterfly hug. And I like this one, because again, it's like 30 seconds. So this one was designed by a woman who created EMDR, which is a type of therapy that helps with with trauma. And there's a story about how there was a hurricane in Mexico, and they were trying to help a big group of people and they couldn't get to everybody individually. And they were all very stressed out because of what had happened. And they created the the butterfly hug as a way of sort of getting everybody in a group and just teaching this little short little thing that was going to help people.
So the way you do the butterfly hug is you bring your hands up towards your face with your palms facing you, and you cross your hands in front of you. And you place your hands on your chest so that your fingers are just kind of under your collarbones. You can also do this where you cross your hands and just grab your shoulders either way, but you want your hands to be crossed. And then you're going to tap one side and then the other so it's right left. You don't want to tap both sides at the same time. There's something about the alternating tactile stimulation that is very common to the nervous system.
And so you just tap like that you can have kind of anywhere on your body. Really you could tap on your legs, if you wanted to, if you were sitting at a table having a difficult conversation with someone, you didn't want them to see you do this, you could do this on your legs. And that works as well for some people. And that is just it's one of those things that a lot of people just immediately feel a softening in their body when they do that. And they don't need the hot bath, or they don't need the meditation, you know, it just kind of settles their thoughts, it settles their heart rate settles their breathing, slows them down a little bit, just makes them more in touch with what it sounds like you're really good at which is interoception. It just kind of improves that for them.
Jennifer:
That's really good. So let's talk about a little bit about the connection between stress and clutter. Because you know, I love this stuff. I want to hear, I would love to hear from somebody from your side of the fence on what that looks like for you compared to how it comes across from somebody like me who's coached people on eliminating Clutter Clutter. But maybe we can give them some scientific reasons, even more than I know. And that would encourage them and motivate them to do so. So what do you have?
Chantal:
I love this topic too. Decreasing clutter, calms your nervous system. So I don't know if you know this, but you help people calm their nervous systems.
Jennifer:
I do know that. I don't think people realize how much clutter affects their nervous system at all. They just know that they're annoyed or stressed out or overwhelmed or not really sure why. Right?
Chantal:
Exactly. Yeah. So well, there's a couple of interesting things about clutter. So it does decrease. When you decrease clutter, it does calm your nervous system. The reason why and I think this is important, the reason why is because it increases your sense of your body, your interoception. Okay, when there's so much stuff around us, too many clothes, the knickknacks, the piles everywhere, the too many choices. What that does is it sets too much noise in our external environment. So our internal environment is hard to attend to. Right. So that's why I say that it improves your interoception by decluttering your house because now you can go inward. Now, I don't know if you have had clients I'm sure you have who have desperately wanted to organize their homes.
They come to you obviously if they you know, if they're coming to you, and they're paying you money to organize and help you and help them they want to help they have mentally decided that they want to change. And have you found that some people get stuck. And it's really hard for them whether whether it's that they can't do it. Like they say they're going to do it. They say they're going to declutter, and they don't, or they declutter, they feel really good. But then it they start bringing back all the clutter, and it starts all over again, like a bad habit.
Jennifer:
Yeah, it's very common.
Chantal:
My theory with that, and I, this is just a theory. So take this however you want. But my theory is that despite wanting to declutter, what I think happens is that some people are having too many feels, and going inward, doesn't really feel all that good. Right. So whatever is going on in their life is causing their heart rate to be too high, and their muscles to tense up and all of that stuff. And if they attend to their body by organizing their house, and now finally, they can kind of feel what's going on within themselves, it doesn't feel good. And so I have found that if you can calm the nervous system, which will help them be able to tolerate what's going on in their body, build a capacity for those uncomfortable feelings. I find that then they're on board completely 100% with this desire to clean up the space.
And that's been kind of a game changer for a couple of friends of mine who you know, for like five years, I had one girlfriend who was like, really, my house bothers me so, so much, it bothers me so much, and you have piles everywhere, and it was causing, you know, problems within her marriage and just, but she could never get herself to do it. Even though mentally she was all there. She was all in and she had the right attitude and but she just couldn't get herself to do it. And she has a very stressful life. You know, three kids and lots of financial stuff going on and blah, blah, blah. And I think it was bringing too much anxiety into her body that was already there, but the clutter was kind That dampening that it was a coping strategy for her really to have all of that stuff in her house.
Jennifer:
Yeah, and it's a distraction, you can be distracted by, you know, organizing decluttering, bringing stuff in taking stuff out rearranging, and you don't have to sit with yourself and feel. And a lot of times, I've noticed this when we're working on a space and there becomes more floor space showing. So I might go in, there's furniture on all ends of every wall. And it's kind of like a boundary, a barricade of stuff. And if we remove some things, because really, that's a that will look cluttered, no matter what you do, if every wall is outlined. So when we move stuff around, take some smaller items away, and maybe like baskets, or things like that, and there's actually clean floor space, that can make people feel very uncomfortable.
Yeah, they're not used to seeing open space. And then it tells me that they really have more work to do. Because that clutter is a protection, it's a barrier. And when you take it away, they feel a little bit more. Like vulnerable, like you, I mean, like there's just too much empty space, we're not quite sure what you're gonna do with it. And then if you look at that, from an internal point, point of view, if you clear out the mental clutter, or the emotional clutter, or the spiritual clutter, then it's another it's it's very relatable to the physical where now you have to take a look at it. And there might be more space available, and you're not sure what to do with that. It can be more energy available, it can be more time available, and you're just not sure how to fill that. And you're not used to just sitting in it with that open space. You're not exactly, yeah. So I see how it translates physically. But that's exactly what's kind of going on inside.
Chantal:
Yeah. And I love that you're aware when you're working with people that that anxiety can come up with that increased space, I think that's really great and helpful for them. Because you can take away that there's, there's sort of a beating yourself up thing that happens when you start cluttering again, right? And so you can take that away for them and go, Look, you're dealing with some other stuff here. It's not just the clutter, the clutter is a symbol of something. And how do we get to you being feeling good about having that extra space, physical and mental, both and being able to go inward without that feeling super scary, right. And what I suggest to people is, you know, if you don't want to revert back to your old bad habits of bringing stuff in and having too much stuff, or if you are just having trouble getting going on your organizational journey, and I don't know, you may, I'm sure you use these tools already, but maybe your listeners don't know about them. But you really need to have create sort of a safe environment for yourself.
And when we are playful, our art like there's no way to be playful and feel unsafe at the same time. Right? If we're in play mode, or our body doesn't feel like it's in danger, right? Eating, playfulness, and even sexiness because we don't think about sex when we're in danger either. So lighting candles and playing the best fun, awesome music that you love. And just being really giggly about what you're doing and maybe bring in your best friend to help you. You know, there's all sorts of ways to sort of design your declutter project so that it feels super playful and light, happy if you don't want people going into their their declutter project, as if they're storming the shores of Normandy, right, like, we're not getting into the boxing ring here.
This fast, feel light and good and fun. And so anything you can do in that respect, and then also slowing down. Because when we rush we are suggesting to our brain, which is interpreting what's going on in our body, that there's an emergency that something's wrong, right. And so all of this rushing that we do, can can really and truly feel dangerous to the body. And that seems really weird. But if you you'll notice, if you slow yourself down, you can feel in your body that your heart rate will slow down as well. Right? And so that's just a reset for your nervous system of okay, we're safe, we're good. This decluttering project is not dangerous. And then you don't get that anxiety coming up when you start to clear space.
Jennifer:
Yeah, it's so true. When because I truly do enjoy the process. And I don't feel rushed. My brain doesn't tell me I need to be organizing three rooms in a day. This is the beginning. And this is the endpoint. And I think a lot of times people feel like they have to do it all today, they won't have another day to organize, they've barely got two hours this time. And that makes them feel rushed. But also, there's that when you just put a BandAid on a space, it's not really curing anything. And so when you work with somebody like me, or another organizing coach, you have to do the whole process correctly. There's no bandaid.
And so a lot of times people aren't comfortable with that, because the clock is ticking. But you, if you're not, if you're not going to have time to do it correctly, there's really no benefit in doing it at all, because it's just gonna go right back to where it was, you haven't walked through the emotional and psychological pathway to get there. And you're just going to revert back to your old habits. And you're not going to enjoy the process at the same time. But if you can look at your space and say, Wow, even if it's a smallest space in the world, even if it's just you know, a linen closet, and you could say, I empty this closet out and I see this fresh clean space here, and I can enjoy filling it how I want to fill it in any way I want to fill it and I don't feel rushed, then it's more fun. If you add music, which a lot of times clients will want to hear the fun music, I mean, that always makes me want to do more things in my house when I'm playing music. And I do like the candles, it's in it that can be as simple as if I want to sit down on my desk and get worked on, I'll put on a nice candle just to make me happier in my space. Or it can be if I want to be moving and grooving and getting stuff done. But I do think what you're saying is very important, whatever you can do to enjoy the process more, you should do it. If you want to have somebody come and laugh with you all along the way, do it. I mean, there's been many organizing projects where I've laughed my head off with a client, you know, you never know what you're gonna find. Right? So but the more fun. So I think that's really important, too, and not feel so rushed. Because all the only deadline is really the ones we impose on ourselves.
Chantal:
And I would say that the people who are coming to you who want to get so much done really, really fast. And are feeling you get a sense that there's a franticness about it. I feel that Yeah. And so already, there's a signal that they're already starting out in fight or flight mode, and you go into decluttering in fight or flight mode, and it is not going to go well. Right. So I think maybe just even doing a couple of tools, right before you go into that. So that you can feel just a little bit better about the process from the get go. You know, and like you said, instead of putting a bandaid on it, it's kind of like going back to our discussion about self care, right? We're not self care can be a band aid, or it can be the actual thing that you need for your nervous system and have some lasting effect. And that's the same way with a decluttering. If you go into it with a common nervous system, you will remain in a really decluttered home probably after that, all of a sudden done.
Jennifer:
Yeah, that's really interesting. And that's, to me, all that internal battle is another form of clutter that you just, it's like sometimes we rather focus on the exterior clutter. So we don't have to focus on the interior clutter, because that's hard. Nobody likes to feel all their feelings sometimes. And, and it can be. But there's also that tie in where I'm bringing more stuff, if I'm doing I'm out and I'm doing retail therapy a lot, and I'm covering myself with all the stuff I'll feel more comfortable, more safe. And more important. There's a big thing to be said with this is that a lot of marketing companies out there are teaching us that we are more important with these things, right? We are more successful. We are all the things because we have these products, but we have to remind ourselves that they're getting paid big money to teach us that method, and to have us buy into that belief. And if you keep buying things and bringing it into your home and you are happy briefly, but then those things aren't making you happy if six months to a year from now. That's when you know it doesn't work. Right, exactly. You have to face the internal clutter.
Chantal:
Right, exactly. And being able to face that internal clutter again, and really being able to manage the fields. Because a lot of times the fields are too much. Yeah, that's really where the nervous system stuff comes in so that you can feel what's going on and be able to clear your space, the literal space and the metaphysical space.
Jennifer:
Yeah. Why do you think it's so much more important for women to manage stress as they get older? That was one of the questions that we talked about.
Chantal:
Yeah. So when our sex hormones decrease, cortisol increases Yeah, there's a balance between those two. And so we end up in perimenopause and menopause. And even before Peri menopausal symptoms, there's a decrease in testosterone in women. And so that will cause an increase in cortisol. I know for me before I went through menopause, in my early 40s, I woke up one day, and I was like, What happened to my muscles where they go. That's that decrease in testosterone. And at the same time, I was feeling more sensitive to stress. And that was just that there was it wasn't necessarily that there was stress in my life, it was that there was cortisol in my body. And so I felt stressed. And so that's where women need to slow down as they go through 40s and 50s, and 60s, because again, that's going to tell your nervous system that you're calm, it's just becomes that much more important to deal with our stress in our life. Because our sex hormones are in flux.
Jennifer:
Do you? Are you a person that like, believes in taking additional hormones if you need it?
Chantal:
Oh, loaded question. I think it's so individual, I think it's really so individual. I mean, I'm a person who might be too much information. But like on the pill, when I was in my 20s, the pill made me suicidal. So fluxes and estrogen, in particular, probably progesterone to are really hard for me. After I had my child, I went through six years of postpartum depression. And that was again, another flux in hormones. So flexes, and hormones are just huge to my body. I don't know why I have no idea. But I'm, I'm a person who would probably want to be on hormone therapy, and indeed I am. And then there's a lots of research to show that it really helps women prevent Alzheimer's. But again, I think it's a really individual. People are supernatural and don't want to go there. And you can find ways with food and behavioral changes that can help and if that works for you. Great. I don't really take a side on that. I think it's really individual.
Jennifer:
Yeah, really good. Well, I feel like we've talked about all the things today, Chantal. I mean, really interesting. But I think the bottom line is, it's, our bodies are made perfectly. And we need to pay attention to how our environment affects our body, and then also all of the whispers that it can be a clue that we have to make a change and do something differently. But the coolest part about this entire situation is that we have the choice, we have the power within ourselves to choose differently at any given time.
And so if you listen to this episode today, and you're like, and I really have felt super stressed out, then that's when it's a nudge to do something different. What you're doing now isn't working. So how can they find out more about you, if they're just like, You know what, I need more of this, I need to kind of write my path. I know that I'm headed down a very stressful path, and I'm tired of it.
Chantal:
Yeah, so I have a company called Body Insight. So they can go to my website, it's bodyinsight.com. I have a lot of videos on Instagram, I just did the butterfly hug actually on Instagram, so they can check that out. And that is BodyInsightInc is my handle on Instagram and same handle at Facebook. And my book is called Settled: How to Find Calm in a Stress Inducing World. And that's available wherever you can get books online.
Jennifer:
Awesome. Yay. Well, thank you so much for being on the make room show. Appreciate it. And I think that it goes along with the vision for the show because you have to choose what you're making room for and not everything can stay in order to live your best life you have to decide what also needs to go so this has been really good. Thank you for having me. Thank you and thank you to everyone listening until next time you
